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Author Topic: PSA, Chans are now supported.  (Read 2321 times)

dokument

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PSA, Chans are now supported.
« on: July 22, 2013, 09:01:21 PM »
You have to download and compile (or run) but it works great so far.

Features:
  • New menu item under "File" allowing you to join or create a chan.
  • You no longer need the address information (stream number, address version number, shortened...) Only the chan name and address.
  • You can send to a chan address from the chan address (anonymous) or any of your other identities (signed).
  • Chan messages are sent using direct messages instead of broadcast messages.
    • This means they are encrypted with the public key of the address instead of the address itself. Increasing security for chan users and decreasing liability for non-participants.

Note: You will not be able to communicate with old chans from new chans since it swapped from using broadcasts to direct messages as the main carrier.

Download:
https://github.com/Bitmessage/PyBitmessage

List of addresses including chan addresses:
https://bitmessage.org/forum/index.php/topic,1689.0.html


.dok
« Last Edit: July 29, 2013, 12:35:54 AM by dokument »
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Jaxkr

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Re: PSA Chans are now supported.
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2013, 01:51:43 AM »
These are much better than mailing lists.

AyrA

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Re: PSA Chans are now supported.
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2013, 03:12:03 AM »
These are much better than mailing lists.
Except that you cannot block senders maybe, just ignore them?

You no longer need the address information (stream number, address version number, shortened...) Only the chan name and address.
Wasn't this the case until now?
What if I want to create a chan with a shorter address?
How does it find the correct stream and address version in the future when miltiple streams and addrerss version exist?
Why entering the address? Doesn't this makes it a copy-paste solution again? It's probably easier to have names in form of <DML-Name>:<Stream>:<Version>
« Last Edit: July 23, 2013, 03:15:48 AM by AyrA »
My Address: BM-Bc7Rspa4zxAPy9PK26vmcyoovftipStp
Bitmessage Time Service (Subscribe): BM-BcbRqcFFSQUUmXFKsPJgVQPSiFA3Xash
Support the Multipart Message Declaration Draft for Bitmessage: https://bitmessage.org/forum/index.php/topic,1553.0.html
Free Bitmessage to E-Mail Gateway: https://bitmessage.ch

dokument

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Re: PSA Chans are now supported.
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2013, 07:56:53 AM »
They offer no moderation unless you add your own client side filter (not blacklist/whitelist).



Wasn't this the case until now?
What if I want to create a chan with a shorter address?
How does it find the correct stream and address version in the future when miltiple streams and addrerss version exist?
Why entering the address? Doesn't this makes it a copy-paste solution again? It's probably easier to have names in form of <DML-Name>:<Stream>:<Version>

  • No, before now you had to enter in the correct passphrase, stream number, address version number, and shortened value.
  • You would have to create it via deterministic address generation and then share that address and passphrase with others to join.
  • That is why you enter in the address. It pulls the correct information from that and even verifies the passphrase.
  • To simulataneously provide stream number, address version number, shortened value, and the correct address to compare to (it will tell you if you have the wrong passphrase for that address).Yes, it is an easy to use solution, why is that bad? Why, those values are stored in the address and giving the address you want to join to assures you join it and not the wrong one.

.dok
« Last Edit: July 23, 2013, 08:11:33 AM by dokument »
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AyrA

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Re: PSA Chans are now supported.
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2013, 10:36:26 AM »
No, before now you had to enter in the correct passphrase, stream number, address version number, and shortened value.
Well they were acutally correct and nothign had to be entered.

You would have to create it via deterministic address generation and then share that address and passphrase with others to join.
And how does my client recognitze this as DML, instead of a regular address?
That is why you enter in the address. It pulls the correct information from that and even verifies the passphrase.
Wouldn't it be better to let the client generate every possible address for that password and let the user select the correct one, instead of letting him copy paste it?
To simulataneously provide stream number, address version number, shortened value, and the correct address to compare to (it will tell you if you have the wrong passphrase for that address).Yes, it is an easy to use solution, why is that bad? Why, those values are stored in the address and giving the address you want to join to assures you join it and not the wrong one.
While the solution is bullet proof (in case the address is actually correct) it makes it extremely inconvenient to use with other media. In countries, where encryption is outlawed you probably do not want to pull stuff for bitmessage from the internet and telling the address over a phone or typing it is rather complicated for the user and leads to errors.
My Address: BM-Bc7Rspa4zxAPy9PK26vmcyoovftipStp
Bitmessage Time Service (Subscribe): BM-BcbRqcFFSQUUmXFKsPJgVQPSiFA3Xash
Support the Multipart Message Declaration Draft for Bitmessage: https://bitmessage.org/forum/index.php/topic,1553.0.html
Free Bitmessage to E-Mail Gateway: https://bitmessage.ch

dokument

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Re: PSA Chans are now supported.
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2013, 02:12:33 PM »
Quote
Well they were acutally correct and nothign had to be entered.
Once we have more than one stream that will change.

Quote
And how does my client recognitze this as DML, instead of a regular address?
You would have to have the passphrase to the regular address.

Quote
Wouldn't it be better to let the client generate every possible address for that password and let the user select the correct one, instead of letting him copy paste it?
No. The average user is going to hear about a chan that they want to join or be told about it from a friend/contact. Entering in the address assures that you are connecting to the chan that you want to connect to. If the user selects, they could easily select the wrong chan.

Quote
While the solution is bullet proof (in case the address is actually correct) it makes it extremely inconvenient to use with other media. In countries, where encryption is outlawed you probably do not want to pull stuff for bitmessage from the internet and telling the address over a phone or typing it is rather complicated for the user and leads to errors.
As opposed to giving out the passphrase,stream num, address version number, shortened value, and hope and wish you did it all correctly? How would you get started with bitmessage if you couldn't do any of those things to begin with? That doesn't make sense.

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AyrA

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Re: PSA Chans are now supported.
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2013, 02:33:31 PM »
You would have to have the passphrase to the regular address.
I think you did not understand. If a user enters a DML in the new client he has a GUI to do so and the client knows, it's a DML. If I create one, I need to generate a deterministic address first. How do I tell the client now, that this is a DML address if it is already in the identities list? or is now technically every address a DML?

No. The average user is going to hear about a chan that they want to join or be told about it from a friend/contact. Entering in the address assures that you are connecting to the chan that you want to connect to. If the user selects, they could easily select the wrong chan.
What is too complicated with "I am in DML 'SomeName' three one zero"?

As opposed to giving out the passphrase,stream num, address version number, shortened value, and hope and wish you did it all correctly?
Think about it (for a DML with the name 'bin'):

currently you need this: BIN;BM-2D7wXW8b9hCKcMTtKSHcvyN4oFaHAV342w
I would need this: BIN;3;1;0

you tell me, what is more error proof and there you probably make more mistakes when typing manually. Also the current system does not allows me to use the X'th address from a passphrase, invalidating this: https://bitmessage.org/forum/index.php/topic,2568.msg4379.html#msg4379

How would you get started with bitmessage if you couldn't do any of those things to begin with? That doesn't make sense.
In states where Encryption is outlawed you get 'illegal' encrypted stuff (for example bitmessage.exe) over radio transmission. When done correctly it sounds like white noise. I do this too sometimes to communicate encrypted over radio or phone.
My Address: BM-Bc7Rspa4zxAPy9PK26vmcyoovftipStp
Bitmessage Time Service (Subscribe): BM-BcbRqcFFSQUUmXFKsPJgVQPSiFA3Xash
Support the Multipart Message Declaration Draft for Bitmessage: https://bitmessage.org/forum/index.php/topic,1553.0.html
Free Bitmessage to E-Mail Gateway: https://bitmessage.ch

dokument

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Re: PSA Chans are now supported.
« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2013, 07:43:01 PM »
Quote
I think you did not understand. If a user enters a DML in the new client he has a GUI to do so and the client knows, it's a DML. If I create one, I need to generate a deterministic address first. How do I tell the client now, that this is a DML address if it is already in the identities list? or is now technically every address a DML?
No you don't. You would go to File> Join/Create chan. Then select create a new chan and type in the chan name/passphrase. The only difference between a regular address and a distributed address is distribution. You could operate a non deterministic address as a distributed address if you wanted.

Quote
What is too complicated with "I am in DML 'SomeName' three one zero"?
I never said complicated, you have twice now. The majority of users are going to be able to copy paste the address name from where ever they saw/found it. So copying 1 address and entering in the passphrase (and receiving verification of joining the correct chan) is much better than having 5 data fields (old method) that you could potentially screw up and not know that you screwed up until it doesn't work but you wouldn't know it didn't work for a non-short amount of time.

Quote
Think about it (for a DML with the name 'bin'):

currently you need this: BIN;BM-2D7wXW8b9hCKcMTtKSHcvyN4oFaHAV342w
I would need this: BIN;3;1;0
You don't have to, but to insure that you are joining the correct chan yes. It also ensures a foolproof entry method since it alerts you to the wrong address or name/phrase.  phrases/names are case sensitive so you would have to use "bin" not "BIN". If that is your argument (that 1 bitmessage address is too complicated to enter) then we might as well have readable addresses and hostnames. Think about how people already enter in addresses to bitmessage, the same would happen for chans.


Quote
you tell me, what is more error proof and there you probably make more mistakes when typing manually. Also the current system does not allows me to use the X'th address from a passphrase, invalidating this: https://bitmessage.org/forum/index.php/topic,2568.msg4379.html#msg4379
Well maybe if I typed like that :P Copy paste is your friend. Then again, this is not an issue with the method but bitmessage addresses in general so let's start a different thread for that if you'd like. Not currently, I am curious as to why that functionality would be needed? It is not a limitation of bitmessage, but is it worth coding for any uses it may serve versus the complication it may add to users?

Quote
In states where Encryption is outlawed you get 'illegal' encrypted stuff (for example bitmessage.exe) over radio transmission. When done correctly it sounds like white noise. I do this too sometimes to communicate encrypted over radio or phone.
It is illegal to send encrypted data over amateur radio (assuming that is what you are referring to) with one exception not applying to us. I'll refer back up to the argument about this being more about bitmessage addresses than the official support of chans.

.dok
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m1bxd

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Re: PSA Chans are now supported.
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2013, 05:52:58 PM »
Hi .dok,

Is there a windows compile to support this coming soon?

Cheers .mx

You have to download and compile (or run) but it works great so far.

Features:
  • New menu item under "File" allowing you to join or create a chan.
  • You no longer need the address information (stream number, address version number, shortened...) Only the chan name and address.
  • You can send to a chan address from the chan address (anonymous) or any of your other identities (signed).
  • Chan messages are sent using direct messages instead of broadcast messages.
    • This means they are encrypted with the public key of the address instead of the address itself. Increasing security for chan users and decreasing liability for non-participants.

Note: You will not be able to communicate with old chans from new chans since it swapped from using broadcasts to direct messages as the main carrier.

Download:
https://github.com/Bitmessage/PyBitmessage

List of addresses including chan addresses:
https://bitmessage.org/forum/index.php/topic,1689.0.html


.dok

dokument

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Re: PSA Chans are now supported.
« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2013, 08:56:46 PM »
Yes.

https://bitmessage.org/download/windows/Bitmessage%20v0.3.5-rc1.exe

and check the wiki for the official release.

.dok
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